On Zen and the Art of Rogue PvP

I’m going to pull a section out of Dusk’s manual for this one.

It’s a video game, calm down and look at what you’re typing. What are you getting so upset over? It’s a video game.

It’s not worth it, whatever it is, whatever he said, whatever he did, who cares? Do you care? Stop for a moment here, please, take a very deep breath and ask yourself “why do i care?”

Watching the blowup between MMOMeltingPot and WoW Insider over the latest Rogue column has been interesting. I’ve often maintained that comments say more about the commenter than the post which is being commented upon, and this is no exception.

No matter what your opinion is of that piece, why do you care what Chase wrote?

Is it because it’s on a high profile website?

So what? Most of the player base doesn’t read WoW Insider.

Is it because he’s getting paid to do it?

So what? His information is accurate and well-typed. There are even pretty pictures. Don’t like it? Don’t advertise on the site.

Is it because Chase is giving advice that most rogues in PvP already know?

Why do you care? This isn’t handing a loaded gun to an infant; this is pointing out features of the terrain in a new questing area and how they can be used for PvP to players of level 85 characters who are making the choice to be there. No one is forcing people to do the Molten Front dailies. No matter what pressure you may have put on yourself to do these dailies, you don’t have to do them.

Is it because he says Rogues should target the weak?

Rogues always target the weak. They don’t go after plate/shield classes because they have Armor. Armor reduces physical damage. They go after clothies because they wear magical toilet paper.

Is it because he advocates irritating people and delaying them? Of causing inefficiencies in the daily routine?

You’re PvP flagged. You haven’t been tricked into it (or if you have, you wait 5 minutes for the flag to drop.) Whether by choice on a PvE/RP realm, or because you’re playing on a PvP/RP-PvP realm, you’re PvP flagged.

You’re both 85, for crying out loud. You’re there of your own volition. Nothing prevents you from wearing PvP gear while doing your dailies. Fight back!

Is it because you don’t like PvP but are playing on a PvP realm?

Why are you doing that to yourself? Is it because of friends? “Friends don’t make friends play on PvP realms.” Face up to this blunt fact, which has nothing at all to do with Warcraft; if they are really your friend, they won’t ask you to do something that makes you uncomfortable. If they insist on it, then … you have to evaluate that friendship. Seriously.

(If you’re there because of your spouse or SO, you have no excuse. Talk to them about why it makes you uncomfortable, and work out a compromise. If someone cares about someone else, they won’t force them to endure something like staying on a PvP server if it’s that upsetting.)

Is it because of your guild? Perhaps you joined to progress in PvE, but they’re on a PvP server. That’s your choice for progression. No one forced you to move to a PvP server – you did it for something you felt was more important.

Is it because you didn’t know any better? You got to level 85 on a PvP and you didn’t realize Rogues would attack you out in the world? Especially in a shared quest hub? Seriously?

You are accountable for your actions, and you are on a PvP server or PvP flagged through your own decisions. You may stay because you don’t like the alternatives – but you’re there because you made a choice to be there. And you continue to make that choice.

Is it because he’s teaching people to not fight fair?

I teach people to not fight fair all the time. Why would you want to fight fair? Pursue every advantage you have, hit the enemy with everything you got. There’s no kill like overkill. Outgear them. Outnumber them. Outplay them. They send one of yours to the hospital, you send 10 of theirs to the morgue.

This isn’t about abuse, or torture, or griefing. This isn’t about following a target around for weeks at a time, whispering them from alts constantly, of spamming them, of sending them pornographic images. It’s not about degrading them as a human being. It’s about killing someone’s avatar in a video game, in an environment where such behavior is allowed by the developers.

It’s about Rogues acting like Rogues. They pick the weakest target and go after them. They harry their opponents into making mistakes. They use psychological fear to intimidate other players. This is what Rogues do.

Why do you care?

Someone wrote something on the internet about how to play a class in a video game. That class revolves around harassing other players, not front line combat, not healing. It excels at being sneaky, and the writer advocated being sneaky.

Is this because you don’t think daily quest areas should be PvP areas?

Dailies are bad enough, but adding PvP into them is worse, eh? If this is the case, how is Chase responsible for this situation? All he’s doing is explaining how the area works. Take this up with Blizzard.

Is it because you believe that Chase is promoting griefing? Not ganking, which is unbalanced PvP combat, but griefing – “a player ruining another’s player experience.”

I read his article. I said it before, I’ll say it again: it read like a guide to Rogue PvP to me.

  • Pick your targets carefully.
    • Plate wearers, especially with shields, are not good. (Amor = damage mitigation against rogue attacks. Simple mechanics.)
    • Clothies are nice. They’re wearing magic toilet paper. You have a knife. You know what to do.
    • Targets who are engaged with other mobs, at low health, have used CDs, are easier targets than those who are fully buffed and standing around.
  • Strike with intent to kill while the target can’t retaliate (during stunlock, preferably).
  • Don’t stand your ground – run away, strike from the shadows, run away again.
  • Harassing tactics are effective.

Chase wasn’t describing how to trick players into flagging, or exploiting Seritha’s Roost NPCs to get people to unwittingly flag – he was describing how to play a Rogue, in world PvP.

Yet, the most commonly cited quotes in protest to his article are:

As I mentioned earlier, it’s not always about slaying your opponents. Your goal here is to disrupt the flow and to make them waste as much time as possible, and you can do that without killing anyone. …

Every minute that they’re delayed is another minute you’ve stolen of their time.

Combine with the solid advice on how to play a Rogue in PvP, does this constitute griefing and abuse?

It’s slowing down players of the opposing faction. If you’re in competition with this faction – say in PvE progression – how is this a bad thing? You’re making it hard for your opponents to progress. You are making it easier for your faction’s guilds to get server firsts by delaying progression.

But even if it was griefing, why do you care? Open a ticket and see what Blizzard says, they’re the arbiters of it.

Remember Psynister’s most excellent guide to Rogue Twinking?

The Harasser covers multiple play styles, but their purpose remains the same. Harassers are there to make people mad so that they make stupid mistakes. You can do this a few different ways. Graveyard campers are a great example of a harasser. Rogue who prey on players with small health pools are also harassers, as are those who simply Sap you, multiple durations worth, every time they see you.

By doing things like this you end up getting a lot of players upset. It’s mean and it really screws with someone else’s “fun time”, but it’s PvP and it’s all part of the game. You know you’ve succeeded in being a quality Harasser when people ignore your flag carrier strictly to have a shot at killing you. Once you have successfully made the enemy hate you, your play style switches between harassment and bait. Luring people away from your flag carrier is just as good, and sometimes even better than killing them.

Rogues are often associated with their ability to kill people, so many players just rush out there and jump into combat every chance they get. How you play is up to you, but there is so very much more to this deadly class than that.

This is how you play a rogue in PvP. You strike from the shadows. You irritate people. You make them afraid.

People who are afraid make mistakes.


Let’s look at this another way.

I advocate the following, on a regular basis, for Warlock PvP.

  • You should pursue every advantage of terrain against your opponents. Get melee to jump down a hill after you, then teleport back to the top of it.
  • Maintain range at all times against melee. RUN AWAY. They will fuck you up if they catch you, so RUN AWAY.
  • Maintain range – except against a Hunter. Get right up in that Hunter’s face and stay on them. Take away their ability to shoot you.
  • Ruthlessly control your opponents through Fear & Spell Lock. You have the best PvP CC in the game, USE IT. (Don’t follow fear with a nuke, wtf is wrong with you?)
  • Target their healers first and make their lives hell. Do everything in your power to distract their healers, pressure them, and make them waste their time dealing with you. Every second they are dealing with you is a second they’re not healing their teammates.

I advocate the following for general PvP.

  • Gear and enchants don’t replace skill, but they sure do help. Overwhelming your opponents with gear is just fine.
  • If you spot someone in PvE gear in a battleground, blow them up. They can do a lot of damage, but can’t take it.
  • Focus on creating imbalanced fights in a battleground. Get more people to critical locations. Get better people to critical locations. Don’t ever make it a fair fight.

Am I encouraging griefing, or good PvP? I’m saying: actively use every advantage the game allows, play your class to its strengths, counter your opponent’s advantages.

Remember my series on level 10 PvP, Sabotaging the Enemy: the Ethics of Gear?

I showed up and was better geared than the opposition. Much better geared. It wasn’t about skill – I pressed a few buttons and people died. Because I was better geared, I had to press fewer buttons, that’s all.

I brought a gun to a knife fight and people died. Bad people, people with red over their heads, died. I did the job I was supposed to do in the battleground superbly well.

Advocating success in PvP is not the same as advocating griefing.


Why do I care?

I’ve said on many occasions that PvP is a highly introspective activity. You have to deal with your own expectations, your feelings about yourself. How do you deal with success? How do you deal with failure? How do you deal with your anger, your hate, your pride?

This is no different. Chase wrote something about Rogue PvP on the Molten Front. People reacted.

I write about PvP all the time. I advocate killing the healers first, of making their lives hell. I advocate proper use of your classes’ abilities to shut down opponents. I actually go further than Chase, encouraging the use of tactics that Blizzard GMs frown upon.

Whatever you are accusing Chase of, you’re accusing me of. If you equate excellence in playing your class in PvP with griefing and abuse, then I’m guilty of it.

You’re also accusing Psynister of it. You’re also accusing Gnomeaggedon of it. You’re accusing a lot of people of advocating things that they just aren’t.

If you think that because I twink I’m a horrible person who likes to beat up others, well, I’ve been told that many times before, in probably more vicious terms than you can manage.

If you think that because I PvP at endgame I enjoy ganking, griefing, and ruining the enjoyment of other players – I’ve heard that before, too.

It’s okay. It’s a video game. It rolls off my back.

But you should be aware of what you’re saying.


Filed under Cynwise's Field Notes

22 responses to “On Zen and the Art of Rogue PvP

  1. Rades

    I’m entirely sick of this debate but of course you find a way to write about it in an engaging, valuable manner. Dammit Cyn! ;)I find it interesting that there’s actually a number of issues that people have with this whole debacle. One is, of course, the TIMELESS and TIRED debate about non-PVPers being on a PVP server. We’ve heard this all before, countless times, and really nothing more needs to be said because both sides will never reach a reasonable intellectual compromise.Another is the idea of griefing. Now, I didn’t have a problem with anything in Chase’s column except the line about wasting others’ time. You compare it to what Psyn advised about Rogue Twinking, but I disagree – I think these are completely different things. Psyn recommends things like graveyard camping and harassment of the enemy because these actions serve a purpose – to get your opposition angry at you and lure them away from your flag carrier. In this context, harassing an opponent is a tactical maneuver that makes perfect sense. But in Chase’s article, there is no such overlying strategy. His goal to waste other people’s time does NOT serve a greater purpose, but is its own goal in itself – to waste someone’s time. Doing so will not let his team win. It won’t “free up” scarce resources, or let a teammate kill a rare mob, win his team a node, etc. It is killing and harrying a player for the sake of doing so. Whether this is griefing or not is another topic, but I don’t think it’s the same at all to what Psyn and you have advised.Other than this, I agree completely with your thoughts! I play on a PVE server, so while I read the article, it was mostly out of idle curiosity since I would never be in that situation. However, even if I were on a PVP server and hated what Chase said, doesn’t mean there’s not value in his words. For example, KNOW HOW ROGUES OPERATE. Hell, half the battle of PVP is knowing your opponents and their tricks / tendencies. I certainly didn’t know where the sanctuary area stopped, for example! If people really opposed what Chase wrote, they should take advantage of the fact that he has inadvertently given them advice on how to counteract his ganking. 😉

  2. Cynwise of Stormwind

    @rades: One argument for disrupting the other faction’s PvE-based dailies is that it slows down their PvE progression. Chase doesn’t make it, and I don’t strongly believe in it myself, but others have put it forward.But I agree, it’s not quite the same end goal. Harassing is what Rogues do. It’s like asking a Warlock not to repeatedly chain Fear someone. 🙂

  3. Druidis4fite

    In a way, “harassment” of other players, within the TOS and their implied consent through flagging/server type is another type of unsupported/non-traditional play. Blizzard doesn’t provide any incentives or rewards for collecting, say, 12 tiers of class armor, or for xp locking your toon at 50 or killing every rare in the game. Do you get your kicks from playing practical jokes? Okay, here’s an entire server of people who said “that’s cool, you can do that to me”!Obviously one could argue that comparison breaks down because tier collecting doesn’t affect anyone else’s enjoyment. Personally I think the implied consent of being flagged means you implicitly agree to abide by Blizzard’s definition of griefing (which includes “pvp problems have pvp solutions.”)

  4. screwlewseWoW

    Hahah Cyn. If it’s off cooldown.. use it right?Leveling my first warlock on a PvP server taught me to be patient, and not get mad. Rogues LOVED me! They would /sit /stand on me all day while I corpse-ran my butt back just to get stunned and ganked again. At first, it made me mad. But then it was my choice to join a PvP server.To me, it’s the name of the game and now it’s almost second nature to gank someone flagged for PvP. I cant resist! Got my first HK on Drenden in Molten Front! I guess I dont fully understand. In my world.. if you are flagged for PvP, you are ready for all the good and bad that comes with it. I’ll enjoy having a rogue use those tactics against me in MF. I’ll probably die alot, but I’m happy if I get them some too.

  5. Cynwise of Stormwind

    @druidis4fite: You bring up an excellent point about how different people pursue fun in different ways. Sometimes they come into conflict.If people are complaining about world PvP getting in the way of Molten Front dailies, I hope that they don’t turn around and complain about the School of Hard Knocks. Their achievement hunting got in the way of someone else’s game, after all.

  6. Grimmtooth

    Nice breakdown, you got a lot more words out of it than I did. :)One thing I would like to comment on. If your friends or spouse got you on that PvP server, and you’re being ganked, where the hell are they? REPRESENT. World PvP is not an individual achievement. It’s alla you guys against alla them.

  7. Psynister

    I do see Rades’s point concerning the difference in what I said versus what Chase is saying to some degree. However, you have to look at the context of Chase’s post to see that we’re actually saying very much the same thing.My post was directly in relation to BG’s and how to play your Rogue within that environment to achieve victory through means that some would refer to as griefing. Chase is actually doing the same thing, only he’s participating in a part of the game that most people don’t understand and that many don’t even recognize as valid – and that is World PvP. World PvP looks at the overall goal of the game itself. The one thing that’s remained constant from the first Warcraft game through WoW:Cataclysm is Alliance vs. Horde. The entire world (of Warcraft) is one, gigantic battleground. Yes, we’re all just players in the same game trying to enjoy ourselves, but Chase is talking about playing the game in character. In character, following the setting of this game, Chase is doing what he’s supposed to be doing by killing people of the opposite faction. He’s not doing it in a nice way, he’s doing it in a rather nasty way, but he’s staying within character. He’s staying true to the game, and he’s doing it by staying true to his class. Is he taking it a bit far by ganking people? Ehhhh, maybe. But that’s a matter of opinion to which we’re all entitled. To understand what he’s saying and why he does what he does, you have to look at the game as a whole and see that world PvP point of view. His goal is to stop your progression – as a member of the opposing faction. His character is doing exactly what his character should be doing, even if he himself is doing something that really upsets the opposing players. In some situations I would hate Chase for what he’s doing. I know when 4.2 was first released I tried to go do the opening Thrall quests on a PvE server and as I went to slay the elementals in Uldum all of the opposing faction was pilled around that whole area and all of them flagged for PvP. If you made one little miss click or spammed a button one too many times you would end up attacking a player and flag yourself which was then followed either by getting destroyed by 8-15 other players or having a shaman/druid knock you off of the platform. Either way, your quest reset and it sucked to be you. I hated every one of those players for doing what they did. I didn’t walk away and leave it alone though, I turned into the ganker on my balance druid and knocked every one of them I could find off the edge before jumping myself and using flight form as soon as I was out of combat just so I could get back up there, cat stealth, and knock the next batch off. Eventually I got my quests done by taking advantage of terrain even though I was flagged and there were still several op-fac players flagged right above me. When I’m roaming the world and I see a flagged opponent, I’ll attack them if they’re not way over my own level. I’ll kill a level 10 on my 85. Why? Because you’re on the opposite faction, and we’re at war. Granted, I don’t sit there and camp that level 10 because there’s no reason for me to be a dick in that situation, but I’ll still kill them. I kill op-fac opponents once and then let them decide whether or not they die again. If they attack me, they’ve given permission for me to kill them again (and again). If they ignore me or leave the area, then we’re done. Some of those people, when our levels are close, will come back to fight me as many as 9 times before giving up. They might be doing it because I pissed them off by killing them in the first place, but I’m killing them because they wear the colors of my enemy. Do I agree with Chase? For the most part I’d say that I do. Would I do exactly what he’s talking about? Probably not, as he’s farming people who intentionally try to avoid his world PvP even after being ganked. If they put up a fight though, yeah they’re asking for me to inspect their internal organs with my daggers.All’s fair in love and war(craft).

  8. Stormy

    No. No. A thousand times no. The article is not directed at rogues. The article is not advocating that a rogue strap on their daggers and their poisons and go kill mages. The article is directed at the PEOPLE sitting at the computers playing those rogues, appealing to those people who have a sick fascination with inconveniencing and demoralizing the PEOPLE playing the mages. This isn’t rogue versus mage. This is about some sick fourteen-year-old little shit who gets a kick out of the knowledge that the person playing the inexperienced and undergeared mage they just killed now has to go back to the graveyard and spirit rez, wait out the ten minute debuff, spend the gold for repairs, etc. This isn’t about evenly-matched PvP between people who choose to participate in PvP in battlegrounds. This is about some sick little shit who gets his rocks off at the idea that someone else behind the computer is pissed off at them.

  9. Poneria

    In my opinion, they’re all PvE servers. On a PvP server, Players are also considered part of the Environment. Deal or GTFO.(On a PvE server, you’re either stupid or willing if a flagged player is standing in front of you and you use any kind of non-single-target ability on an NPC mob.)

  10. Cynwise of Stormwind

    @stormy: First: That’s an ad hominen argument. Second: You describe the non-Rogue entirely in the terms of a victim. “… the inexperienced and undergeared mage…,” as you put it.That does the player of that mage a disservice and perpetuates a victim mindset that, quite frankly, I dislike intensely. By participating in a PvP realm or flagging for PvP, that person has consented to an environment where this can – and will – happen. Portraying them as an innocent robs them of their own responsibility in the matter. Not only did they willingly enter this environment, they have the ability to improve, to fight back, to form social bonds that allow them to turn the tables on the Rogue.If you seriously think that that mage has no responsibility for why they are there in that situation, and unable to do anything about it, I’m interested to hear it. I just don’t see it.I’ve said it before in several other places, but I’ll say it here: I’m not personally a fan of PvP realms. I like being able to level and quest without worrying about getting ganked. That is not the kind of environment I want to spend my game time in. I like to choose when and where I PvP.But that’s why I rolled on a PvE server.

  11. Stubborn

    Note that this comment is as much to the other comments as to Cyn’s write up.What bothers me most about this debate is the lack of empathy shown for other players. I despise world PvP but ended up on a PvP server before I was aware of the difference so that I could play with my friends. Despite the fact that you may think this shows my friends don’t care about me, what it shows is that I do care about my friends and am not going to ask them to lay down hundreds of dollars to move all their toons to another server. Now, I’m aware of my personal responsibility in this matter, and I don’t gripe too much about it (no more than an ordinary person, I’d think). I don’t like that people advocate ganking, but that’s the spirit of the server, so fine. I understand that I’m the one out of place, not the PvPers.What bothers me is that so many people out there who clearly get a kick out of this sort of thing will sit by and pass judgment on others, suggesting their friendships are invalid, that their spouses and friends – who may of course have jobs and lives and not play at the same time – have abandoned them, that the only solution to the problem is becoming a pvper yourself or leaving (typical argument, by the way; love it or leave it. There’s few stupider arguments in the world). I can appreciate another player’s right on a PvP server that I signed up for to engage in PvP. I can’t fathom why, though, such a complete intellectual and emotional void exists in discussions over the matter.

  12. Psynister

    I started on a PvP server as well, along with my wife who hates PvP. Her best friend (IRL) and several of our other friends here in town play on that server which is why we went. We had a lot of fun with our guild and liked the server…except for the PvP.In the end, we left the server and all of the friends behind, because we knew we all cared enough about one another that we didn’t have to spend time playing on a server that we didn’t like. Eventually other people joined us, some of them transferring a toon or two, but most just rerolling fresh.Your friends aren’t going to hate you for leaving a server. If you’re not happy there, go somewhere else. Some of your friends might join you and some will not because they don’t mind the server. If you want to keep the friendship going when you’re on different servers, then join twitter or another social network to keep in touch. I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for someone in your place, Stubborn, because I was in your place. Fixing the problem isn’t hard, you pack your crap and leave. It’s as plain and simple as that. Just because you don’t feel like you want to do it doesn’t make it an invalid option. It’s not that we don’t understand what you’re going through, it’s that this is the fact of the matter. PvP servers aren’t going to change into being PvE servers. Either you start enjoying PvP or you leave the server – those are your only options for “fixing” the problem because the server isn’t going to change. If you don’t like those options then you’re left with doing nothing and just dealing with it.

  13. Syl

    Very well written and insightful post, Cynwise. While I can understand that some people have a hard time with the principle of PVP, playing on a DEDICATED server is a choice they have made. they are responsible for that choice, not others. I’m completely against mellowing down everything everywhere – we already have seperate server modes exactly for this reason. What else do you want?And if someone really didn’t know what a PVP server was before rolling a toon there (which can happen, I guess..), well tough luck. it is STILL his problem and he’s the one that needs to leave / transfer / reroll somewhere else. big deal – people make mistakes sometime. admit to it and act, don’t blame others or expect them or the game to bend around you. you don’t enter an Italian restaurant and then ask for Chinese food…. and you don’t ask the opposite faction to “play nice”, so you can do your dailies. this is exactly why outdoor PvP in WoW is almost dead. So yes, “don’t do that to yourself” really is the best advice. if you can’t or don’t want to handle PvP, stay away from it. don’t spoil it for others who have every right to play rogue on a server that was created for that purpose. I did that myself in WoW despite my attraction to chaos, I’m just too old to be ganked by a bunch of kids on the road while traveling hehe, I need to make the most of my playtime. 🙂 hence the PVE server. Yet, I truly hope there will always be free servers out there with people enjoying the dynamic of ‘everything goes’ and the sort of challenge, adrenaline and unique companionship PVP can provide. if you have a mind and time for it, it can be a fantastic experience (in general). I think this is sadly something that doesn’t happen often enough anymore in WoW, real organized guild PvP and outdoor strife, so many players only ever know that small/pettier aspect of PvP and condemn it entirely. I think not knowing enough about PVP really is the main issue in this debate. makes me wonder whether this is also a sign of the ‘modern MMO age’ we live in? maybe future developers need to provide extra disclaimers and manuals at the character creation screen, to make absolutely sure players know what they’re signing up for…

  14. Syl

    (Sorry, I think my contact was somehow not registered for that last post, I did not mean to post as ‘anonymous’ commenter.)

  15. Cynwise of Stormwind

    @Stubborn:Thank you for your comment, and it’s nice to see you on the site. I’ve thought a lot about your comment and the charges that you (very reasonably, and I thank you for that) laid out in it; namely, that I, and those who are stressing personal accountability in our counterarguments, are not expressing empathy for other players, and that we are passing judgement upon relationships that we don’t understand – and that it’s not our place to judge.I think you’re right that I’m not expressing a lot of sympathy for people who are complaining that PvP happens on a PvP server.The tone of dialog in Hugh’s post, as well as related ones, has really strained my civility. PvPers have been called “fucking assholes,” by Hugh, “sociopaths,” by Rilgon, “sick little shits,” by Stormy. PvP in ANY form other than on equal terms has been equated to bullying by Hugh and Rebecca.In light of all that … hate … stemming from a single PvP article, you better believe that, as a PvP author, I am deliberately trying to keep myself emotionally detached. I write a lot of PvP articles, and have advocated the same kind of tactics that Chase talked about. Create imbalanced situations to win. Do whatever it takes. If you can bring more people, bring them. If you can have better gear, get it. If you can attack when your opponent is weak, do it. If you can get under the other player’s skin and mess with them so they make mistakes, DO IT. But the discussion has moved on from Chase’s article, and his statement about wasting other player’s time, and is now about playing on a PvP realm, and player accountability.Let’s switch from talking about Warcraft for a bit. I moved my family out of a large metropolitan area to a semi-rural vacation town so my kids could grow up around their grandparents and my spouse and I could have a slower pace of life. Overall, I believe this was the right thing for me to do (which is why I did it.) But it’s come with some drawbacks – the job market down here is terrible, so I’m locked in with my current employer. I gave up career advancement for my family’s well being. And I have to put up with my mother-in-law living 5 miles down the road.For me, the benefits of living here outweigh the drawbacks. I don’t always love it, but the drawbacks haven’t been enough for me to consider leaving it. If I were to start complaining about the job market – like you said, beyond reasonable statements of fact – I expect my spouse to call me on it. I expect anyone I talk to about it to call me on it. If I start bitching about how I’ll never get a job, I’m locked in my current position forever, my bosses are mean – I expect to be told to stop whining and DO something about it. I either fix the problem with the negative – go out and pound the pavement to find a better one, start my own company, go to school again, work my way towards a better one – or accept it as the cost of living where I do. If I can’t accept it, and I can’t change it, then I get up and move my family.This is not “love it or leave it,” which I agree is a stupid argument. Life isn’t binary. You can be on a PvP server and not like PvP, but like everything else about the server. And it’s fine to say so!But if you start saying that you refuse to adapt (learn to PvP) and insist people adjust to you, for YOUR benefit, you’re right, I’m going to judge you without a lot of sympathy.If you start saying that people need to follow your rules instead of the rules of the land, you’re right – I’ll say, file a complaint and see what Blizzard thinks about it. You’re saying you don’t switch servers because you don’t want your friends to have to pay to move. I say that you like playing with your friends more than you dislike PvP. Either your friends don’t know how much you dislike PvP, or that you just deal with it as a consequence of playing with them. (For which I salute you!) If you’ve brought it up with them and they say, no, we’re not going to move, then that *is* an indictment against them, and I stand by what I wrote.But by staying, you’re implicitly saying that you like playing with your friends more than you dislike PvP, and that you’re going to accept it. Whether you choose to adapt to it is up to you.@Poneria: I hadn’t thought of it like that, and I quite like it!@Syl: Thanks for the comment! I too am too old to be bothered by kids during my playtime, so I rolled on a PvE server. I like choosing when I’m going to be fighting for my life, and when I just want to go mindlessly farm some herbs. And this is a very informal blog, contact info not required!

  16. Stubborn

    Cyn,Thanks for your well-thought out and polite reply. As I mentioned, I really didn’t have a problem with virtually all of your post, and this comment just cements that feeling; that there are plenty of rational, intelligent, and friendly PvPers out there. While it makes more sense in retrospect, your anger towards the tone that others are using is completely understandable. While I can see I was being very one sided in my comment, I am aware that the disrespectful, apathetic name-calling goes in both directions, and I appreciate the examples you provided in your comments to help remind me of that. You’re also spot-on about the cost/benefit analysis I do every time I get ganked (not really every time, but you get my point). I am choosing PvP and playing with my friends over neither. Every time I go to roll an alt, I think; I’m going to learn to pvp with this one,” but I usually end up healing or tanking anyway. My only pure dps 85 is a mage, and while I did PvP a little to see if I liked dpsing, I never dedicated myself to it. I’m leveling a rogue now, so perhaps I’ll drop by more often and pick up some tips for you (on general pvp, since I know your main is a lock).On my site, several posters commented in a very similar manner to you, and I thank them and you for furthering the debate in a way that really seeks a middle ground where we can all preserve our opinions but understand others’. I’m sorry you’ve been given so much grief over it in the past by other bloggers, and I appreciate you taking the time to better explain your position for my benefit.